1

Hi

I'm new here and am hoping to get this software working nicely. I ws told that a "Bike Fit Tracking Tool" has been added to the s/w and I have just downloaded the experimental version to see if it will do what I am looking for, which is this: http://youtu.be/2xmI7utNZNw I've just recorded a short experimental clip with a cyclist on a turbo trainer and I can't find anything in the menus or anywhere else about the tool, which is what I want the software for, can anyone point me in the right direction? I've downloaded and installed 0.8.19

Thanks,

Q

2

Hi

Right, found the bike fit tool in the end, it was the "long click" I was missing out on. Just got to work out how to get the dynamic tracking version to work now!

Q

3

Hi

Ok, so I can now load up the bike fit "angle skeleton" and I then drag the "joints" in the skeleton over the corresponding anatomical points on the subject in the video, good so far. The problem is what to do then to get to the result in this video? http://youtu.be/2xmI7utNZNw There must be something I'm missing to get the software to track all the points and come up with the result in the video illustration. If I right click the options I get are "track path" "high speed camera" "save image" or "close this screen". The only possible useful one would seem to be "track path" but if I select that I just get one of the blue double boxes as I would expect if I was just wanting to track one object so it's hard to see what to do next. The description in the YT vido linked says "Short clip of the new Bike Fit tracking tool in Kinovea 0.8.19. This is an excellent result given the lack of markers. Momentary loss of tracking on the foot is shown, but the software recovers and reacquires the location." I just can't see how to get this to work, even less how to get it to work this well without the use of markers!

Can anyone help, come on you developers!

Regards,

Q

4

Hi,
You must right click the added skeleton itself, to get to its specific context menu. There you'll get another "Track path" option, which will track the points of the tool itself.

5

Hi Joan

Many thanks for your reply. I've made some progress but I'm still having problems getting the points to remain "locked" on the markers, I'm currently using coloured stickers. I think part of the problem is that I'm using a webcam which will only record at 30fps, no high tech high speed cameras here, just something cheap and cheerful.

Anyway, I'm very grateful to you all for making this software available, it's certainly allowed me to do some work on this and I'm further along than I was before I found this package, which was nowhere!

Q

[video]http://youtu.be/TRLkesAsT-s[/video]

6

Yes the shape distortion makes it harder to track…

Regarding the imaging hardware, the ideal results would be obtained with

  • high frame rate - more frames means the shape will change less from frame to frame and has less chance to disappear outside the search window.

  • high shutter speed - will better stop freeze the moving object as opposed of creating the blurry shape you have in your video.

Control of shutter speed is generally the hardest to get as camcorders/cameras/webcams are built to create movies pleasing to the eye when played back, and so for the vendors the blur is actually a feature rather than a bug mad

For the markers the plain circular shape you have is good. Avoid shapes that would not look the same when rotated, like a rectangle or a triangle. Another thing to experiment with would be to have another smaller circular disk, say half the size, inside the main one, with a contrasting colour.

The size of the target is also important, for that you can switch to the regular trajectory tool (right click in an empty area on the video), the inner rectangle is the actual target being tracked. The marker should take as much of its space as possible. (The outter rectangle is the search window).

Keep us posted with the experiments smile

7 (edited by Chas Tennis 2012-10-17 15:29:39)

Cameras with AUTO exposure control can adjust shutter speed (collected photons) and ISO gain (output signal electrons per photon) and perhaps other factors.  Better cameras may also adjust aperture if they are equipped with variable apertures in the video mode. 

If the AUTO control selects faster shutter speeds for higher light levels, the motion blur might be much reduced in strong illumination.   

The level of lighting in outdoor direct sunlight is on the order of 100X the lighting level of indoor lighting. 
See Reply #11 - http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=435

If you video the cyclist outdoors the AUTO may select a much faster shutter speed and considerably reduce motion blur.

8

Chas Tennis wrote:

If the AUTO control selects faster shutter speeds for higher light levels, the motion blur might be much reduced in strong illumination.

Ha! I wonder if it's possible to somehow trick the camera into thinking there is more light than meets the eye so that it selects a faster shutter speed…

9 (edited by Chas Tennis 2012-10-20 15:05:43)

joan wrote:
Chas Tennis wrote:

If the AUTO control selects faster shutter speeds for higher light levels, the motion blur might be much reduced in strong illumination.

Ha! I wonder if it's possible to somehow trick the camera into thinking there is more light than meets the eye so that it selects a faster shutter speed…

No conclusion but and interesting forum discussion:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420469/pocke … -for-movie

1) While we want the fastest shutter speed possible for minimum motion blur, the OP in that topic is trying to avoid fast shutter speeds and thereby get more motion blur for more attractive videos!

2) In Post # 4  a video showing very fast AUTO(?) shutter speeds in direct sunlight.
http://vimeo.com/22535092. 
Look at motion blur on the running feet, stop frame on the baseball in flight, etc. -  fast shutter speed. 

3) In Post# 15 - description of a program, DVMP Pro 5, that displays metadata for video including shutter speed for video segments or frames?. 

4) Some discussion at the end about how quickly the AUTO might change during recording.

10

Cycling pedal rotation rates range from 70-170 RPM, ~ 1-3 RPS.  With a 17 cm pedal radius the highest sprint pedal velocity at 3 RPS would be about 1.1 m/sec.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_%28cycling%29

If a very small marker on the foot with a velocity of 1 m/sec has motion blur of 3 cm in a video then the exposure time, t, of the camera for that video would be

V x t = 3 cm

t = 0.03 m / 1 m/s

t = 0.03 sec

(The video of a straight line rotating with a known rate can be used to measure the motion blur and calculate the camera's exposure time.)

11

Chas Tennis wrote:

(The video of a straight line rotating with a known rate can be used to measure the motion blur and calculate the camera's exposure time.)

Yes, I thought about this a bit yesterday and I think we don't even need to convert back to linear speed.
With a filled sector of a known angle on a rotating plate and measuring the apparent angle of the sector during video, we can directly infer the shutter speed. I came up with the following:

shutter speed = (measured angle / known angle) × angular speed

- shutter speed: in s-¹
- measured angle: in °. Angle measured on video frame.
- known angle: in °. Actual angle measured physically.
- angular speed: in °/s.

The advantage of this is that it's independent of the distance of the rotating plate to the camera, and doesn't involve any calibration of the space.
(We can even instead divide the angular speed by the "blur factor" to get the denominator of the more familiar "1/x of a second" notation).

I'll try to set up the experiment tomorrow to see if I can deduce the shutter speed of some cameras.
The same setup under various illuminations would help understand if a given camera has several shutter speed levels during video, if it adjust itself during a single shoot, how often does this adjustment occur, etc.

12

Hi

"the OP is trying to avoid fast shutter speeds and thereby get more motion blur for more attractive videos! "

smile

Q

13 (edited by Chas Tennis 2013-01-23 17:20:44)

joan wrote:
Chas Tennis wrote:

(The video of a straight line rotating with a known rate can be used to measure the motion blur and calculate the camera's exposure time.)

Yes, I thought about this a bit yesterday and I think we don't even need to convert back to linear speed.
With a filled sector of a known angle on a rotating plate and measuring the apparent angle of the sector during video, we can directly infer the shutter speed. I came up with the following:

shutter speed = (measured angle / known angle) × angular speed

- shutter speed: in s-¹
- measured angle: in °. Angle measured on video frame.
- known angle: in °. Actual angle measured physically.
- angular speed: in °/s.

The advantage of this is that it's independent of the distance of the rotating plate to the camera, and doesn't involve any calibration of the space.
(We can even instead divide the angular speed by the "blur factor" to get the denominator of the more familiar "1/x of a second" notation).

I'll try to set up the experiment tomorrow to see if I can deduce the shutter speed of some cameras.
The same setup under various illuminations would help understand if a given camera has several shutter speed levels during video, if it adjust itself during a single shoot, how often does this adjustment occur, etc.

Have not considered an angular technique.

This still picture illustrates motion blur and how it increases with radius out from the center of rotation with linear velocity.  There is no motion blur at the center.

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/53108 … 00-8-9-rps

http://g2.img-dpreview.com/BCD7506FDDFC4073BA9693E530768A0A.jpg

"To test the Jello Effect for a Casio FH100 the camera viewed a straight bar on a rotating disc, 8-9 RPS. Single frame. 10 Megapixels. The mechanical shutter has removed Jello Effect distortion. Ordinary motion blur increases out from the center of the disc. Compare to the electronic shutter images with distortion."

This still picture was taken with a mechanical shutter in the Casio FH100 at exposure time of 1/640 sec.   [DSLR cameras also use mechanical shutters for most photos.  Mechanical shutters turn out to be faster than the electronic 'rolling shutters' of CMOS cameras and might reduce distortions when compared to the electronic Jello Effect distortions.]
   
Added 1/23/2013 - The mechanical shutter in the Casio FH100 for stills is believed to be a leaf shutter.  A leaf shutter, while it is open, can expose all areas of the sensor silmultaneously.  The bar on the rotating disc above is not distorted, it's straight, with a leaf shutter.   In contrast, focal plane shutters as used in most DSLR cameras expose different areas of the sensor at different times and will result in some distortion, for example, f a swinging golf club may be bent.  Shutter-  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutter_%28photography%29

For illumination levels, include direct sunlight with no cloud blocking the sun.

For a rotating disc I used a sanding disc in a drill.  A disc is also safer than a straight rigid object.  My ceiling fan rotates at 2 rps.  You can get the rps from the camera if the frame rate is fast enough (frame rate > rotation rate).

An easy-to-find rotating object would be a bicycle, use upside down and view the spokes - calibrate rps from the video if fast enough. 

ADDED 12/11/2012 - Bicycle Test for Shutter Speed vs Motion Blur. Also can show Jello Effect distortions.  For higher speed rotate the rear wheel using the pedals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lItCq5Gp6vw

Maybe the rotating disc should be white with a black bar so that the camera's AUTO exposure has more light and will select a faster shutter?

(Your post - Shutter speed units are seconds.)

14

Hi, I'm new on the forum and with kinovea, i'm also interested in bike fitting and running analisys. Can we make a step back please? were can I find the bike fit tool? or another way to trace the angle like inthe videos you posted before?
thanks!

15 (edited by VeloTraining 2013-03-26 16:40:01)

Niklas, i don't have it in front of me but I remember that the bike fit tool "popped up" when I realised that on one of the menus it needed a "long click" on the mouse rather than just the usual short click. Try long clicking some of the options and the bike fit tool should appear. Post again if it doesn't and I'll try to check it out on my PC at some point.