1 Topic by joan

  • joan
  • joan
  • Admin
  • Offline

As of version 0.8.16, when you hit "save" you are presented with a dialog with mainly 3 options.
1 - "Save video with analysis modifiable" (default)
2 - "Save only the analysis"
3 - "Save video with analysis permanently applied on the video"


I was sort of proud of the technical achievement of the first option (An XML block is saved as a separate stream inside the video), and that may explain why I was blind to it being a usability problem.
I am considering removing this option altogether and revamping the dialog.


Some points:
A - It has always been a source of confusion. Partly because the concept itself is not commonly seen in other softwares, and partly because it is hard to explain. One has to have some understanding of multimedia files and the container/codec difference to grasp it.
B - I personally don't use it much. I feel safer to save the analysis to a separate text file anyway, and this avoids transcoding the video.
C - I think the original use case was to be able to send a single file over e-mail, rather than the video and the analysis separately. If it's all there is to it, it's not much.
D - It shouldn't be used for longer videos. The cost of transcoding the whole file outweights any hypothetical benefits that muxing the data inside it would have.
E - You should keep the original video around anyway for safety. So this render the point of reducing the number of files moot. Just keep the KVA instead of the enriched video and you end with same number of files.

I'm actually considering removing this option, or at least pushing it to some different dialog. Saving to a simple KVA file would become the new default.

This would leave only two options on the dialog, and this could actually be handled differently:
1 - There could be a simple "save" menu that would always save analysis to text file. (KVA). Do nothing if there is no key images or tracks, etc.
2 - And a separate "export" menu that would save the working zone back to a video. Now this menu could yield a dialog allowing for various kind of exports (diaporama, time freeze, maybe image sequence, etc.)
Oh, that could even be designed as a tabbed dialog for extensibility (youtube export, dual export with vertical/horzontal option, etc.)

related topics:
discussion about the first simplification between 0.8.15 and 0.8.16.
Recent issue with this function.


Your opinion is very much needed on this one.
Do you use this function ?
If you rely on this feature please describe your scenario.

If you have other ideas on how to organize the various saving options (including maybe the other export options like spreadsheet).

Thanks !
big_smile

2 Reply by Chas Tennis (edited by joan 2011-09-10 12:17:09)

  • Chas Tennis
  • Member
  • Offline

This would leave only two options on the dialog, and this could actually be handled differently:
1 - There could be a simple "save" menu that would always save analysis to text file. (KVA).  (KVA = Kinovea Analysis text files?)     Do nothing if there is no key images or tracks, etc. ?

Please clarify. It would be important for me to save KVA files with tracking information.  Also more than one KVA file might be associated with a single video.  I am unclear whether the KVA saves the tracks.

2 - And a separate "export" menu that would save the working zone back to a video. Now this menu could yield a dialog allowing for various kind of exports (diaporama, time freeze, maybe image sequence, etc.)
Oh, that could even be designed as a tabbed dialog for extensibility (youtube export, dual export with vertical/horzontal option, etc.)

I have no experience with these video options.   I used Vimeo a few times to test earlier.

What I'm doing may be typical for an individual trying to develop an athletic skill with limited and optional needs to communicate display videos. 

I want to analyze my tennis strokes using high speed videos & Kinovea.   I don't yet have much experience using Kinovea version 8.15.   

Description of my use –

1) Take high speed videos of my strokes, friend’s strokes and pro strokes.  Target specific stroke motions such as internal shoulder rotation (total arm) and forearm pronation (elbow to wrist) on the serve.  For pro servers I have 150-200 high speed videos of this compound axial arm rotation at 240fps.

2) Next, practice my serve trying to incorporate what I see in the pro videos (making adjustments for safety, the skill level difference, etc.)  I still don't have the conclusion from step one that I need on forearm pronation timing relative to internal shoulder rotation.  That's because the pros don't have markers on their arms and I'm unsure of the timing of both pronation and internal shoulder rotation prior to ball impact.   Pronation is very difficult to see with certainty while internal shoulder rotation is very easy to see.   The video would work with markers to clearly see pronation.

3) Future. Using Kinovea compare my practiced serve to the pro-serve regarding the timing of both pronation & internal shoulder rotation.  No practice yet until I understand pronation timing.   When I use Kinovea I would want to save more than one analysis for a given video especially for tracking different objects.   There would be one video and sometimes several KVA files associated with that one video.    Save new or modified KVA file for each work secession with a given video.

4) Finally, in the future communicate what I have using Kinovea videos with analysis tool results permanently in the video using the option discussed here.


[edit joan : added quote tags for clarity]

3 Reply by joan (edited by joan 2011-09-10 12:54:39)

  • joan
  • joan
  • Admin
  • Offline

Thank for the comments !

Chas Tennis wrote:

This would leave only two options on the dialog, and this could actually be handled differently:
1 - There could be a simple "save" menu that would always save analysis to text file. (KVA).  (KVA = Kinovea Analysis text files?)     Do nothing if there is no key images or tracks, etc. ?

Please clarify. It would be important for me to save KVA files with tracking information.  Also more than one KVA file might be associated with a single video.  I am unclear whether the KVA saves the tracks.

Yes. It would work like this:
- When you first open the video, the "save" menu is disabled.
- As soon as you add a key image, a stopwatch or a track, the "save" menu is enabled and let you save all these meta information.
- To be clear, if at some point you remove each and every analysis information, the save menu becomes disabled again. The "export to spreadsheet" sub menus follow the same principles.

The export menu would always be enabled to let you save the video as an image sequence or to save it slow motion even if you did not enrich it.

Chas Tennis wrote:

3) Future. Using Kinovea compare my practiced serve to the pro-serve regarding the timing of both pronation & internal shoulder rotation.  No practice yet until I understand pronation timing.   When I use Kinovea I would want to save more than one analysis for a given video especially for tracking different objects.   There would be one video and sometimes several KVA files associated with that one video.    Save new or modified KVA file for each work secession with a given video.

This is definitely possible. When you save a KVA file, you get to choose the file name.
- If you keep the suggested name that matches the video file name, this particular KVA file will be opened automatically when opening the video. (companion file).
- If you choose a different name, you will have to import it explicitely later, using "Load key images data" menu.

You can have several files associated with a particular video, each focusing on a specific aspect for example, and you can combine them all into the current video using the "load" menu repeatedly ("combining" is from 0.8.16 forward. Before, it did a "replace").

Chas Tennis wrote:

4) Finally, in the future communicate what I have using Kinovea videos with analysis tool results permanently in the video using the option discussed here.

Yes, and I feel this is more precisely conveyed by an "export" verb. Because once done, you won't be able to edit the analysis of the exported video.


edit:
Some caveats,

- Contrary to the current default option, the original file would not be backed up in any way, so it must be clear that it shouldn't be deleted.
Hopefully this will be clear since you will only be able to use .kva as format target. But the user still has to understand that this is not a video format, and that this file will only "work" when imported onto an existing video.

- Currently the observational references, (.svg and images), are not saved into the KVA.
(It is certainly technically possible though, as SVG is XML, and raster images could be stored either in CDATA tags or encoded in Base64.)

4 Reply by Chas Tennis (edited by joan 2011-09-11 11:43:54)

  • Chas Tennis
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: [Discuss] Saving dialog - simplification project

(Please excuse my Quote method.  I somehow often seem to lose the site Quote method when copying & pasting to Word.  Probably my error.)
...............................................................................

Clarification of terms –

As soon as you add a key image, a stopwatch or a track, ……………..


     “key image.”  You use “key image” is a specific way that is still unclear to me.  I’m not very knowledgeable of computer terms and Googling "computer key image" gets pictures of door keys.

    Whenever I hear the term “key image” I am trying to interpret what it means and to what it applies.  Is it a single identified frame of video perhaps with something added such as a track or label?   How does the term “key image” - when used for a track - relate to a series of video frames that shows both a developing track and also the complete track?  Are all frames with tracks, etc.“key images”?  Or is it the image itself only of the track, label or stopwatch with information on where it is placed in the video frame? 

The export menu would always be enabled to let you save the video as an image sequence or to save it slow motion even if you did not enrich it.

“an image sequence" has no special meaning in terms of “key images”?  Correct?

This is definitely possible. When you save a KVA file, you get to choose the file name.
- If you keep the suggested name that matches the video file name, this particular KVA file will be opened automatically when opening the video. (companion file). 
- If you choose a different name, you will have to import it explicitely later, using "Load key images data" menu.

Assigning the desired KVA must be done before opening the video or the “companion” KVA file will be applied in opening the video? Correct?

    "Load key images data" will list the available KVA files for the selected video? 


edit:
Some caveats,

- Contrary to the current default option, the original file would not be backed up in any way, so it must be clear that it shouldn't be deleted. 
Hopefully this will be clear since you will only be able to use .kva as format target.

Terms. Not familiar with the term “a format target”.  The term“file extension” is very familiar to me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_format

But the user still has to understand that this is not a video format, and that this file will only "work" when imported onto an existing video.

- Currently the observational references, (.svg and images), are not saved into the KVA.
(It is certainly technically possible though, as SVG is XML, and raster images could be stored either in CDATA tags or encoded in Base64.)

I guess by "observational references" you mean things such as the cross hair coordinates that are useful for work secessions but that you would not want to display?  Images?  Is there a list of the observational references?

5 Reply by joan

  • joan
  • joan
  • Admin
  • Offline

Very quickly not to disrupt the topic:
- Key images in Kinovea.
- Most simple drawings (like lines or angles) are "attached" to a specific key image.
- Tracks and stopwatches are not attached to any key image.
- Image sequence. No bearing to key images. Just to do automatic snapshot at regular intervals.
- Load key images data: this feature is already here so you can check for yourself. It opens a regular "Open file" dialog that let you pick any KVA file on your hard drive, and import on the current video.
- Format vs extension. Data representation (format) is XML. But the file extension is .kva to make it easier to associate the file with Kinovea. (Very common schema). Open the file in notepad to see how it looks.
- Observational references.